Our current president is a pro-choice Democrat. One day, after President Obama was elected, I was in a prayer meeting. As we were sharing requests, one friend suggested that we "pray for the salvation of our president." I mentioned that our president claims Christianity as his religion. "Why don't you think President Obama is a Christian?" I asked. "He is pro-choice. He is obviously not a believer."
Following the logic here, these things seem to be suggested in that comment: 1) Pro-life-ism is the only legitimate Christian position. 2) Therefore every true Christian must be pro-life. 3) So then, a pro-choice person is not Christian, because being both pro-choice and Christian would be an oxymoron.
Here are my questions: Is it incompatible to be both pro-choice and Christian? Or is it possible to be both? Is a pro-life stance on abortion one of the "essentials" upon which we must have unity?
Preemptive Notice: I do not want to hear about whether you think President Obama is a Christian or not. That is not for us to debate or decide. Second, I do not want to hear your argument for or against either the pro-life or the pro-choice position. Finally, yes, I am pro-life. You don't need to try to persuade me.
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Good point Ryan. I guess you wanted to get a little more provocative with this one.
ReplyDeleteAs I'm thinking about your post, to be a Christian is not some big list of do's and don'ts. I think what we can agree what the essential component is.
What about then having different views on homosexuality, or if hell exists. Are those essential to salvation? I would suggest that they aren't as well yet if you have more liberal views on these issues are you considered out of the camp on orthodox Christianity?
Could someone who practices homosexuality in a monogamous relationship that says he believes that he has a personal relationship with Jesus. He understands salvation as faith alone and believes all the essentials but just has a different view on the Scriptures on this issue. Most Christians would submit that he doesn't really have a "true relationship" with Jesus then.
Not sure where I come out but just raising up some thoughts.
Ryan! It is possible to be both. I am strongly opposed to abortion but I struggle how I should maintain my pro-life position because I fear that the Church in America has confused her nation and her people (the USA for the church). Technically speaking, pro-life and pro-choice are political positions not statements as to whether such actions are morally reprehensible or morally neutral. Because this is a secular nation I don’t see how a political position can be considered essential to the faith. What if I was pro-choice but denounced abortion among the people of God every chance I could because I wanted believers and unbelievers to know that there is a difference between outsiders and insiders (for the sake of your other commenters who don’t know my position, I understand that it is the people of God who are called to keep God’s commands while outsiders are not).
ReplyDeleteAs for the permissibility of abortion on a personal level, I fail to see how a believer could justify abortion as an acceptable alternative for dealing with any pregnancy.
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ReplyDeleteMatt,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your thoughts! I really wasn't making a point. Just asking a question. I recognize that simply by asking, it may sound like I am would answer the question 'Yes, it is possible to be both.' The truth is, I don't know. As for your comments on homosexuality, that post is coming soon. I'll save my thoughts until then...
Bern,
That is an interesting point about who is held to the Lord's standards. I guess my follow-up to that is anti-abortionists oppose abortion as a form of murder. If that is the case Genesis 9 seems to make that universally prohibited.
Also an interesting comment about this being an essentially political issue. Are you saying that the issue is fundamentally about rights and protection of government? Or are you saying that an ethical/philosophical issue has become politicized?
I suppose my answer would be that even Gen 9 is written particularly for the benefit of the people of God. I think Gen 9 gives us grounds to call it murder, whether our secular nation recognizes it as such is a different question.
ReplyDeleteI suppose it comes back to my motivation. Do I want to Christianize the country and risk confusing the US w/ the people of God in my mind or in the minds of others? Or do I simply want to stand up for what is right and true? If I can do the latter w/o the former then that's something I feel pretty good about.
I love this topic it is one of my favorites and I great thought hats off to you brother for your candor and tact. Proposition Believer of Christ should be substituted with Disciple of Christ
ReplyDeleteAnd behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Matt 26.51 ESV What is a True disciple of the Lord? Does the Most High reward those who fear Him and take the life of others into there own hands. I believe these things of life belong to the Lord and not to the creation. He has instituted his boundaries for taking the life of another sure.
I love the example of the Midwives who obviously lied there tails off, but in there fear of God did not take the lives of Hebrew children even under the direction of Pharaoh. Ex. 1
Then the Spirit reveals people of faith in Heb 11, this one really triggers my brain connections or lack thereof. Rahab openly lies about the spies? Lie? Murder? Uhm interesting.
I personally would side on the preservation of life even if I had to lie to do so however there was a point in my Christian walk pre toddler years that I didn’t even think of such things however in that state I found great comfort in the scriptures and the Revealing of Gods will in such matters, even in this time i wanted to know what God said about things I think it is such of a believer in Christ indwelt with the Holy Spirit who would desire to please the Most High and seek His will in these things.
So here is my answer to the question one can be a believer and in ignorance make a mistake. Uh i am guilty of that myself. When the Word is revealed and we willingly disobey as Adam did then death is before us. I also believe God shows favor to those who side on preserving life and these matters are in Gods hands not man. Uh Cane and Abel.
And no wisdom can trump that of What would Jesus do, or what did He do? This was a regular question I asked myself and still do.
The United States is not the people of God. But as U.S. citizens, believers have the rare ability to take part in the decisions of what the state holds to be right and wrong. If God has led you to believe that abortion is wrong and not simply a sin that follows the sinner but also creates an innocent victim, how can you not work to protect those victims? A pro-choice position from a declared Christian seems to be either a calculated political move or the action of someone wishing to avoid conflict or someone who has been mislead. I am skeptical of the entire pro-choice stance since easy access to abortion was rooted in a movement for sexual liberation. That liberation was from Biblical prohibitions. It would seem that if you take into account the driving force for a position, and that driving force is based in sin, then it becomes harder to reconcile the idea of a pro-choice Christian. I have stated my opinions bluntly in the hopes of having an open dialogue on this issue - I hope I have not given offense to anyone whoe does not see this issue as I do. Ray Mancil
ReplyDeleteNo offense taken Ray. I am still wrestling with my thoughts on this issue b/c of the innocent victim factor. If we can view the US as a secular nation and still fight for restrictions on abortion that's great. I fear the logic that says we should outlaw it because we are a Christian nation.
ReplyDeleteRay,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your thoughts! I really like your comments about understanding the roots of the movement. That is something I had not considered. I think you are right that we should be wary of anything born out of rebellion against the rule of God. At the same time however, a thing's roots do not always determine its final value. One biblical instance is cities: the first cities in Gen. 4 & 11 are born of human rebellion, but the last city Rev. 21-22 is the eternal dwelling place of God with his people. Just some thoughts...
Love this format to discuss things like this. Allows me time to gather my own thoughts and forces me to allow the rest of you time to voice yours!!
ReplyDeleteBern; Do you think that everyone that is pro-life is Christian? For that matter, do you think that only Christians oppose murder or kidnapping? Just because there is a moral element to an issue does not mean that it has to be the totality of the issue. With that in mind, would we have as much trouble framing this issue if we were asked if a pro-adultery decision Christian was an oxymoron? Does not have to have any political over tones to be wrong on the basis of morality. Comments??
Grady, good questions/challenges. To be clear, I would like to get rid of abortion. My central concern, however, with the pro-life movement is when believers confuse the US with the people of God in their reasoning. Before anyone asks, this carries into other arenas as well. Thus, I do not condemn the abolitionists of the 19th century or MLK Jr because they sought to shape the nation according to some Biblical standard. However, if their motivation was that this was a Christian nation and therefore should reflect Christian standards I would like to have a serious conversation with them.
ReplyDeleteWhen it gets down to it, I suppose my concern is that by confusing the people of God and the US, we become plank-eyed hypocrites who don't know the difference between a believer and an unbeliever and look to the government as the solution to society's problems.
Bern,
ReplyDeletebacking up a few steps in the conversation to the Genesis 9 thing: while Genesis 9 was written to God's people, it surely reflects real events, right? I mean at some point God actually did make a covenant with Noah and actually made a universal prohibition on murder. So then, no matter who the text was written by or for, the reality behind the text still holds. Even if that story had never been recorded, if those events did indeed happen, then there would be a universal prohibition on murder.
Ryan, good question. Again I'm not debating the rightness or wrongness of abortion - but the supposition on which it's abolition (and other common Christian positions) is advocated. I'm all for getting rid of abortion, just not because the US is a Christian nation. I'd rather have another motivation, feel free to suggest one, there are many.
ReplyDeleteWith regard to the applicability of Gen 9, don't you think the essential argument would inevitably become "because the Bible says so"? Then I ask, where do we stop? We live in a bizarre situation where the gov't is theoretically subject to the people instead of vice-versa, I don't think there's any simple answer to how Christians should engage politically. But when we do we should demonstrate that our city, home, and country are in Heaven and that our hope is not on the earth. Our most vocal members aren't doing this on the whole.
But since we're in Gen 9, I notice that it doesn't speak to specifically to governments - the jurisdiction is totally unspecified. I know I'm perhaps being unfair here, but the take home point of Gen 9 might not be "vote to outlaw abortion," but rather "make sure abortion doctors don't die of natural causes." I think we're all a little more than uncomfortable with that.
Now I should say again, I'm not arguing for abortion, I'm strongly against it. I believe God will hold people accountable for the abortions they participate in and I will call it murder and infanticide. The reason I think this way is based on the faith handed down to me as found in the Bible. I think it is right to warn people of the outcomes of their deeds and of the coming judgment, urge them to repent of their wickedness for faith in Christ (or to conform to Him on this issue) but I think we all need to stop and prayerfully consider how we approach giving the government authority to legislate Christian standards.
This is probably a case where we go ahead and push for abolition, but we do that for good reasons that have nothing to do with the US being a Christian nation (cause it ain't). Again my one and only point is that Christians in America have confused the US with the people of God and it's nether good for us or the US, that's my only real point.
When did America cease to be a Christian nation? It is my belief that we are indeed a Christian Nation in transition to a Babylonian belief society. The very fact that there is debate in the subject at all levels of government and church proves that we are indeed a Christian Nation in transition to whatever your cranium would desire to call it. God is being removed from the different parts of our government, schools and work environments. Soon it will be challenged in the home. Indeed we must be united in Pro choice as a body of disciples and yes there is a twisted group who pervert the truth contained in the Word, and yes we need to be aware of the group who are ignorant to these issues, and present a clear united front and this is more the reason we need to be united in our vision and approach to pro-choice. The message must be clear and simple for people to fallow. Now how we do that is a different topic. I am sure there are many approaches to deliver such a message in love and clarity to where people can truly chose truth. I do believe for one to claim to be a Christ follower there is no other response but to preserve life in any case. I believe united that the Most High would here our cries if indeed we weep for the loss of these children. Do you weep before the Most High? It seems that many have become numb to the subject. Maranatha most holy Jesus.
ReplyDeleteI must say I am enjoying the conversation about America and people thinking we are the people of God. Ryan maybe a blog idea is on what the Christian's role is in politics.
ReplyDeleteThese last 6 months I have been so bothered by Christians who are watching Fox News religiously and have anointed Glen Beck as their new leader and our living in fear of what might happen to America.
If we are biblical Christians shouldn't we expect things to change and to be ready to suffer for our faith.
I have heard so many extreme right Christians say how much fear they have for our country right now.
I say bring it all on. Then we will see really who is committed to Christ and we will see many more people come to Christ.
As Bern suggested, let's live with Heaven in view and being our eternal destination.
In light of this discussion, Bern is going to do a guest post in a couple of weeks on the topic of the US and the People of God, and the idea of a Christian Nation.
ReplyDeleteThanks Bern.