HELL, that is.
Hell is a disturbing concept. Eternal punishment, where pain never ceases, no one ever dies, and there is no hope of improvement...forever. When I really pause and think about it, hell is downright terrifying. But then again, I guess that is the point. Preachers have been scaring people with hell for generations. "Turn or Burn," they say. I wonder how many people find their way to heaven out of the fear of hell.
In recent years, the concept of hell has come under fire. Two main objections are frequently raised: 1) the unbalanced scale of finite sin vs. infinite punishment, and 2) an all loving God would not do that to people. Objections like this have many to believe that instead of eternal punishment, unbelievers will simply cease to exist (a position called annihilationism). They argue that instead of eternal punishment, "hell" is missing out on an eternal paradise with the Lord. Others object that this takes the teeth out of the gospel. Concepts like the wrath and justice of God become rather mundane and docile.
What do you think? Is it ok for a Christian not to believe in hell?
What is gained by eliminating hell? What is lost?
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Wow - can we go back to ideal Bibles? Don't you think it'd be a good idea to follow it up with our personal worship team all stars? Like Jeremy from DC*B on drums/midi, Kevin Max on vocals, Tony Terusa from the Supertones on Bass, and the Mexican guy from POD on guitar? Maybe not - sounds like a silly band...
ReplyDeleteI'm rolling w/ the metaphorical view of Hell (eternal, conscious, tho prob not actual fire based on the fact that fire makes light and Hell is described as blackest darkness). Nevertheless, Clark Pinnock does bring up two interesting challenges in 4 Views on Hell: 1) the necessary eternality of the soul is a Greek Idea not a Biblical/Hebrew one. 2) Most biblical language of punishment is along the lines of destruction - final, completed, not onging. Thus we speak of an eternal punishment not eternal punishingment. Food for thought anyway...
When you gonna talk Young Earth/Old Earth/Theistic Evolution?
Bern,
ReplyDeleteI agree about the metaphorical view of hell. That is my view. Pinnock's thoughts are interesting. He and Stott do the best at making a biblical case. I would respond however, that the eternality of hell is not fundamentally tied to the eternality of the soul. In fact, i don't think anything biblical is fundamentally tied to the eternality of the soul. but that's another matter.
I would also point out that hell is primarily a nt concept. when pinnock refers to 'most biblical language' i guess he is referring to the prophets. i would point to progressive revelation here.
on the creation thing, how about next week?
Yeah, I find Stott & Pinnock intersting but not quite compelling. I think progressive revelation is a sufficient answer to what we see in the OT; not to mention that my sense is that many OT judgment passages probably refer to temporal judgment (i.e. death in this world, exile, etc) rather than what happens after death.
ReplyDeleteRyan I never took you for a pg'er. I do believe that every disciple should settle on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them via the Holy Word about the place known as fiery hell. First question how do you interpret the word “prepared” in Matt. 25.41? And what about the place known as Ge-Hinnom, Gehenna or Valley of Hinnom a very sad but real place and good illustration to the “prepared” fiery hell. Here is a good question is the word “hell” a correct rendering of “Gehenna”. What about the geek Greek “Hades” rendering of OT “sheol”? I do concur with the thought of Greek pagan death and the unseen place or world for those who have departed, but that only provides more application for me to discuss a real literal hell. I also know that Jesus holds the keys. Eternal separation is a scary thought I didn’t even need to add the fiery place of torment. With Jesus is good / without Jesus is bad. Simple thoughts for even the unlearned like me. Thanks Jesus freaks.
ReplyDeleteOh yeh my ESV PSR will be here within the next couple weeks. I so cant wait, but have too.
ReplyDeleteMiles,
ReplyDeletetwo comments, i don't want you to get the impression that a metaphorical reading of hell is pg. all it means is that we can't take all the passages about hell, and draw a picture based on them.
secondly, one reason to think of hell metaphorically is the conflicting images like a place with both eternal fire and a place of blackest darkness. if we take both of those seriously, they cannot exist together. all i would say is that we need to take them seriously as images of torturous and horrifying judgment, but not literally as if hell is place where there is some kind of special fire that doesn't make any light.
Finite sin against an infinitely good being is infinite (Anselm). Add in love, and the transgression is not only one against the being, but against yourself and your potential with that infinite goodness (Abelard? kind of . . . :D). Logically and emotionally (hitting up basic greek forms of argument -- logos and pathos if you will), any sin against an infinite being would then require infinite punishment -- dictated by the idea of justice.
ReplyDeleteSo hell has to be more than "metaphor." It's certainly supernatural, and it's certainly enacted much differently than we can perceive on earth (the arguments for life being its own punishment aside). It seems in a life of faith that belief in a hell of dark burning fire is a much more preferable alternative to a hell which technically isn't. The Bible and the church fathers are very clear that it is.
If you mean by "metaphor" that the descriptions given in the Bible are to give the pre-death human a remote conceptualization of what Hell is going to be like, you kind of by definition have to be right. We have no experiential knowledge of the infinite. But "metaphor" still fails in this meaning. Maybe if you tried "poetic." It just seems best to use another word.
T
P.S. I blame anything offensive or ignorant I might say on Bern; he linked me here. I also claim everything intelligent Bern says (a la Tashlan). Awesome. :D
Tom,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your thoughts!
To be clear, the metaphorical view is the latter position you describe. the prior position is annihilationism.
I would agree that the term metaphor does not quite get it. that is really just short-hand for "not to be taken literally." Perhaps it is better described as contextualized language. The Lord constantly contextualizes himself so that we can understand him. I think the imagery of hell is this sort of thing.
You do make a couple of absolute statements that I would question. You said, "Hell has to be more than a metaphor." While I agree that it is a real place, I would argue that it only "has to be" given a certain theological system (some form of calvinism).
The other thing you said is that the metaphorical view is right by definition. Again, many would disagree with you here, appealing to mystery and taking both the fire and the blackness as literal albeit incomplete concepts.
Even if the fire is very large there is an absence of sun, and stars or eagle scouts with 9v and steel wool to start a campfire that would be literally dark and taking into consideration that the sun isn’t coming out anytime soon for the fiery hell, still dark. And who said you were going to be able to see in hell anyways? So hell can be dark and fiery all at the same time without compromising either. I remember the eyes of a certain person being burned with hot coals, he couldnt see very well, neither could Paul? Just a thought from the peanut gallery. What about those Phillies.
ReplyDeleteBern, don't we have to have Shane Bernard on Acoustic guitar?
ReplyDeleteI won't pretend to enter into this discussing knowing much. I frankly haven't studied this at a seminary level to know what I truly believe on the different positions of hell.
But as a missionary church planter, and someone who has a deep passion to see many know God it seems to lessen that passion if I take the view that our souls cease to exist.
The only consequence is separation from God and not enjoying his eternal presence but what does that matter if I am no more and not existing.
The urgency in preaching the gospel is because we desperately want people to know Jesus but we are concerned that they will suffer eternally either in an eternal lake of fire, or in some metaphorical hell that God knows. Which ever way it is, we can all know that it's no place we want anybody to spend eternity.
But again, if this place doesn't exist, to me that eases the burden because then I don't have to worry about people suffering eternally.
Would believers and missionaries be willing to risk their lives for the gospel if there wasn't a hell? Doesn't this lessen the stakes?
It seems clear that the New Testament talks about a clear place of suffering eternally.
Just a few thoughts.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteYou bring up a good point! There is a missiological and ministerial concern here. Two thoughts on your comment 1) i am not accusing you of doing this, but we should be very careful about defending a doctrine based on its ministerial usefulness. 2) the exact same arguments that you level against annihilationism here are leveled against calvinist unconditional election. i understand that calvinists have answers, persuasive or not. annihilationists have answers as well. i would suggest that their answers are about as good as the calvinists at this point. but that suggestion could get me into hot water...